Wokai Adventures

End Global Poverty. Faster.

Courtney

An Opportunity International Director told me that their organization was planning on launching a P2P lending platoform at some point.

And that time has arrived. Check out OptINNow.

What Wokai should learn from OptINNow:

1. Simplicity. They kept it simple - funding loans to entrepreneurs is their goal and thats all you can do on their site.
2. Online & Offline. What you can't see on the site is that Opportunity International is launching a Chapter network much like Wokai. I actually spoke with them about developing this. I think you need the combo of online and offline to get something like this off the ground.

3. Media. When they launched the site, they also launched this nifty video, which is hosted on their Youtube Channel. Check it out: http://www.youtube.com/user/OptInNow

One can't help but think what Wokai could become if it had some real funding behind it. The OptINnow and Microplace websites (and marketing campaigns) have showed us that. But then there is Kiva - a bootstrap non-profit without a major marketing campaign behind it. And its funny, what is the firts word out of anyone's mouth when you mention microfinance? 9 times out of 10 its Kiva. With that in mind, I think Wokai will be just fine!

Asia Microfinance Forum Wrap Up

Casey

I am about to leave Hanoi tomorrow morning to head back to Beijing. The Asia Microfinance Forum and being in Vietnam with microfinancers from all over the world was exciting on a lot of levels.

The most inspiring area that I learned about during the conference is the current innovations in green and renewable technologies. While we are planning on promoting green microentrepreneurs by highlighting them on our website, I hope that we can move a step further by allowing contributors to invest in clean technology for borrowers. One example would be biogas technology, which is basically a receptacle and processor of animal feces that turns it into methane gas to fire a stove. A contributor could go on, support the loans of a borrower who would like to take out a loan for biogas equipment, and then watch the borrower’s repayment over time. It would be similar to the idea of a green consumer loan. One of the MFIs that both Courtney and I have visited, Ningxia CEPA, has been providing biogas loans and equipment set-up for the past few years.

So, to get off my tangent, here are some of the most interesting new areas and organizations that I learned about during the conference:

CLEAN TECH

There are quite a few new organizations popping up that are promoting the adoption of sustainable energy technology for microentrepreneurs. This may take the form of biogas, as I mentioned above, solar technology, bio-fuel (plant produced gas), cleaner alternatives to coal, and hydro-electricity. A few interesting organizations to check out are SEEDS, a Sri Lanka based organization providing loans for solar and hydro-electric equipment, Green Microfinance, a US based organization innovating with new approaches to promoting environmentally sustainable solutions for development, Arc Finance, an organization linking microfinance and the energy sector, and Sigma Global, an organization on the forefront of integrating clean tech and carbon credits with microfinance.

TECHNOLOGY INNOVATIONS

So, after about three hours worth of explanations, I finally understand cell phone technology applications for microfinance. I knew that borrowers would go to local grocery stores or small vendors to make cash repayments and take out loans, and then use their cell phones to do the transaction, but the piece that I had been missing was that this doesn’t mean that the loan officer is out of the equation. As Ryk from B2Bpricenow.com explained, the loan officer still goes to the borrower's village every week for borrower meetings, but the loan officer’s role changes from being the cashier to being a support, training and information resource, and enforcer in case the borrower does not repay. This increases efficiency because the loan officer doesn’t have to return to the branch as often to deposit funds, reduces the risk of fraud by the laon officer and danger that funds could be stolen from the loan officer in transit, and ensures that the MFI receives on-time, accurate information. The storeowner that is collecting and disbursing cash may herself be a borrower from the MFI and receive a fraction of the margin on each transaction. To learn more about interesting organizations on the cutting edge of microfinance technology, check out B2Bpricenow.com, Green Bank, IBM Global Services, and MICRA.

INVESTMENT

Microfinance investment has traditionally been isolated to funds providing loans to first tier MFIs. It’s great to see how this model is evolving.

Adam Smith Ventures is the first large fund to introduce the private equity model into microfinance investment. They are launching this year and I can’t wait to see their model implemented.

Another new approach is that introduced by Catalyst Microfinance Investors. CMI is being launched by ASA, the world’s top microfinance institution, according to Forbes. CMI will use the MFI model developed at ASA to create new greenfield MFIs in countries including Sri Lanka, India, Ghana, Nigeria, and China. In China, they plan to have two branches and 400 clients by the end of this year. CMI aims to have a total portfolio of $500 million by 2014.

The final trend I learned of is debt-based funds moving farther down the microfinance pyramid. An example is Incofin, a Belgium based fund, which is investing in second tier MFIs that before would not be considered as a potential investment options. Up until now, almost all microfinance investment was limited to about seventy first tier MFIs. This meant that 99% of MFIs could only access funding in the form of grants or subsidized loans, which are obviously unsustainable funding sources. The only way that funds can promote the movement of MFIs up the pyramid is to start investing in MFIs that are lower down the pyramid. It is therefore exciting to see this evolution in microfinance debt investment.

Doing a bad job of winning back good graces...

Casey

A funny, but somewhat tragic microfinance tidbit:

Back in February when we were publishing our Enewsletter, I was away on a Field Visit and I left our Enewsletter publishing to our new staffers Bick & Adam. We had just officially announced our partnership with Chifeng (CZWSDA) and Bick and Adam mistakenly wrote in the Enewsletter that the Grameen Foundation founded Chifeng when they should have written that GF is a funder of Chifeng. Well, the Enewsletter went out, a Grameen board member read the Enewsletter, and they obviously weren't too pleased about the completely erroneous statement.

So today I met a Director from Grameen who understandably wasn't overly excited to be in my presence. Right before my speech I was a nervous so I decided to employ the pre-speech anxiety cure that Dan, my speech coach and Wokai's future Beijing Chapter President, had taught me yesterday, push-ups. I went to an employee only back area of the hotel and found a railing to do half push-ups on. I was on my seventh count when the same Director from GF sees me in my suit doing push ups in a workers only back area of our four star hotel as she heads into the restroom... and the bad impressions only get worse... Why is it that once it that I always seem to dig myself deeper into holes instead of digging out of them?!

 [Imagine me in a beige suit with a pink shirt doing girl style push ups on a railing in the storage area of a 4 star hotel]


[Picture of an embarrased rabbit]

Asia Microfinance Finance Forum - Day 2: P2P Lending Platform Panel

Casey

Today I gave my Why China needs person to person + speech on the P2P lending platform panel at the AMF. The panel started with Darren Miao talking about Kiva, their model, and innovation plan for the future, which includes starting Kiva in the classroom, the functionality to allow groups to lend on Kiva, and starting a Kiva chapter network at elite colleges around the US. Kiva is now at the point where they are absorbing $1 million in contributions every 12 days. That's so impressive!

I followed Darren and spoke about Wokai's person to person plus model of an online and offline approach to person to person lending. The online being a three-part website, like Kiva + Facebook + Wikipedia. And, the offline component being working on the ground with our Field Partners doing extensive on-site evaluations and monitoring as well as technical assistance training in areas like finance and accounting.

Finally, Professor Arvind Ashta, who is co-authoring a book on peer to peer lending models spoke about his research into the main models out there, their stregnths and weaknesses, and the key determinants that he and his co-author found to be key to succesful platforms. It turns out, that a successful p2p platform should have social networking, blog, and wiki components, along with lending. While none of the p2p platforms that Professor Ashta studied in the project had all of these components, the Wokai future platform contained them all. Professor Ashta and Jack Sim, the founder of the Water Toilet Organization that was in the crowd, were certain that Wokai on the right track, but the rest of the audience seemed pretty enthralled with Kiva and directed their questions at Darren. So, who's right, the self proclaimed Toilet King or the organization with over hundred thousand + lenders? We'll see...

On a side note, you should check out the Water Toilet Organization. Jack Sim is quite an innovative and enthusiastic entrepreneur. The WTO promotes an often ignored but incredibly important cause of proper sanitation and waste disposal in impoverished populations. Jack pointed out that more people die per year of Diarehea and worms due to improper sanitation than HIV. Check out some entertaining Q&A with Jack and the Asian Development Bank:




Water Champion: Jack Sim
Flushing Down the Toilet Taboo
August 2007

By Ma. Christina Dueñas
Water Knowledge and Communications Coordinator, ADB

"How do you handle the jokes or embarrassment that accompany talks of toilets?

It is normal for people to laugh when we talk about toilets. When I was starting the WTO, I met Thailand’s Mr. Condom, Senator Mechai Viravaidya. His advice to me was “Laugh at yourself. Don’t take yourself so seriously. When they laugh with you, they’ll listen to you.” I love it when I introduce myself as the Toiletman.

What are the WTO’s objectives and thrusts?

Our objective is that every person must enjoy safe and sustainable sanitation.

Our programs cover advocacy, capacity building, and development projects. For advocacy, we organize major events such as the World Toilet Summits or World Sanitation Fund Forum. We also celebrate World Toilet Day every November 19.

In 2005, we launched the World Toilet College in Singapore. It offers courses that professionalize toilet cleaners, teach architects and managers to design ergonomic layouts, and train rural poor communities on bio-gas designs, urine-diversion, and other ecosan methods. We’re getting ready to open another toilet college in Indonesia.

We also have development projects involving toilet construction for tsunami victims in Indonesia and Sri Lanka, rural schools in China, and more.

How would you describe your crusade for better toilets?

I worked as a merchant and manufacturer for decades but realized that no matter how much money I make, I won’t have any use for it when I die. I estimate to live for 80 years. So at age 40, I shifted to social work and focused on toilets. My dream is that every human being will have a safe and enjoyable toilet to use everywhere they go. This may not be possible in my lifetime but I must say that after 10 years of volunteering and social work, I see no better use of my remaining 30 years than pursuing this dream."

http://www.adb.org/Water/champions/sim.asp

Asia Microfinance Finance Forum - Day 1

Casey

I arrived in Hanoi last night for the Asia Microfinance Forum hosted by the Banking With The Poor Network (BWTP), the Foundation for Development Cooperation (FDC), and Citi Group. Today was the welcome reception and opening dinner for the conference. It is so exciting to be down here in Hanoi and an honor to be part of the conference. There are over 500 participants who make up the leaders of microfinance both in Asia and worldwide. Tomorrow I will be speaking on Why China Needs a P2P+ Model on a panel called "Internet Based Lending Models - Status and Trends" along with Daren Miao from Kiva and Professor Arvind Ashta from CEREN, Burgandy School of Business and Finance in France.

Being here in Vietnam and interacting with members of The China Delegation (the six other people here at the conference that make up our representation here of China's microfinance sector) at the conference, makes it so I can't help comparing China and Vietnam:

After the glory of the Olympics, I was in China-awe mode before deboarding my flight in Hanoi. It's interesting to be able to compare China and Vietnam's capital cities, Beijing and Hanoi, one day after the end of the Olympics. There are definitely more of what metropolitan Beijingers might consider "poor people" here, but it seems more like they make up the middle class of Hanoi. While the streets are lined with flowing gutters and most people eat on at small vending stands on the streets, almost everyone has a motorbike and I looks as if they can afford their meals. From what I've seen today, as well on my past trip to Hanoi, everyone is pretty much even financially with a few outliers, unlike Beijing where you have the extremely affluent urban dwellers driving Audi A6's and very poor migrant workers crammed 8 people to a room live right beside eachother.

This state of relative equality is similar when you compare Hanoi with the Vietnam countryside; the gap between urban and rural areas in Vietnam isn't all that great (of course my perspective is biased coming from China). As opposed to China where the cities and countryside are two different worlds. I was walking with a few members of "The China Delegation", and they were commenting on how "Vietnam is in the same place today as China was fifteen years ago". When I took a closer look, it was more like, "Hanoi is where Beijing, and China's other big cities, were fifteen years ago". When you compare the countryside of Vietnam with that of China, they in fact share a pretty similar level of development.

So does that mean that Vietnam will experience a similar path of development as China? Will Hanoi, Danang, and Ho Chi Min, experience rapid growth and modernization, while the countryside only sees minor developments, or will development in Vietnam enjoy a more egalitarian form of development?

This also brings to mind the question of what the meaning of development is, both for China and more globally?

If eventually 20% (260 million) of China's population acheives a standard of living that is equivalent to that of an average citizen in a Western European country, 20% (260 million) are living a lifestyle equivalent to an urban inhabitant Ho Chi Min or Hanoi, and 60% (780 million) share the same living standards as a rural inhabitant in Vietnam, Cambodia or Malaysia, will China be considered a developed country?

Crowdsourcing: Can we trust the wisdom of crowds?

Courtney

Wokai has recently found itself looking up another web 2.0 word: crowdsourcing.

Crowsourcing is when a community of independent people collaborates to accomplish a task. The work of many can replace that of one. And in fact, the workproduct is better. It usually is more accurate, completed in a shorter timespan and remains constantly up-to-date. 

James Surowiecki flushes out the philosophy behind crowdsourcing in The Wisdom of Crowds. James looks at why large groups of people are smarter than an elite few, no matter how brilliant. He provides countless examples of why the masses are better at solving problems, fostering innovation, coming to wise decisions, and even predicting the future. Take a task like figuring out how many gumballs are in a gumball machine.  Who would come closer: a group of 100 people collectively deciding or one expert gumball guesser making a wager? James bets on the crowd.

And it seems as though netizens'do too. When was the last time you went to the library to find information? Chances are your like me and have not visited a library for over ten years. Instead, you hop online and use world’s most successful crowdsourcing champion Wikipedia. Through the collective genius of many, Wikipedia has succeeded at the task of being to answer just about any question.

As much as I love Wikipedia, I still question the crowds ability to come to the right answer.

I did an experiment. On Facestat, you can receive feedback on any photo of yourself you upload. Here is how it works: upload a picture, choose five questions you want answered, sit back and wait while your photo is judged. In less than 24 hours, you obtain the averaged opinions of everyone that judges your photo. The results are fascinating…

I asked people how old I looked. And the results varied widely from photo to photo. In photo 1, they thought I was 35-39 and in photo 2 they thought I was 22.

Photo 1: I am only 24. God only knows how I will look when I actually am 40!

Photo 2: Apparently I look younger here. My average age being 22. But it crazy that the most popular choices are 18-21 and 30-34.

I think the experiment raises an important question about crowdsourcing: Who is in the crowd? And does it matter? In regards to Facestat, you can see the judges of people who looked at your picture. In the first photo, a bunch of teenage girls judged me. And in the second photo, it was a much older crowd, split half men and half women. Clearly crowd composition played into the results. Maybe Facestat needs a rating and classification system to weigh opinions different. Those who are experts and not? Or perhaps experienced at getting the right answer?

While crowd composition has few ramifications on Facestat (other than hurting users’ feelings), sites like Dermundoand Elanexcreating crowdsourcing applications for online content  translation may face bigger problems. With DerMundo, any netizen can translate any webpage. You just click on the pencil in the top right hand corner of a site, up pops a translation box, do your business and submit, and then voila….hours later your translation is live.

Well maybe notquite voila. There are some other complicated back end technical things going on as well. For instance, an automatic translator is often involved. The auto translator can do a portion of the work and the rest can be left up to the netizens. What’s great is that these companies are constantly aggregating all their translations to improve the quality of output from that automatic translator. The more the software is used, the better it gets.

The implications of this are HUGE for Wokai. Anyone anywhere could tap into any webpage and do some translation free of charge. This means that any volunteer whether they be in China or in the US could log onto Wokai, translate a borrower profile, and within hours that translation is live. This would reduce Wokai operational costs over the long term. Great news for a starving non-profit.

But are the implications HUGE for the world? For interest driven sites, I think yes. For product driven sites, I think not. I think that crowdsourcing translation will work for websites build around interested, passionate, and involved user communities. There are a lot of bi-lingual netizens who care about Wokai succeeding, so I have no doubt they will log in and translate. But what about sites like Amazon, Microsoft, Yahoo, etc. Will they obtain dedicated user communities to translate?

I don’t think so. But then again, maybe they don’t have to. Maybe Elanex and Der Mundo can improve the efficiency of their auto translator through interest driven sites and then sell that translation service to the product sites? After all, they are the ones with all the ren min bi and lord knows we are not.

But I guess thats besides the point. What is the point is that crowdsourcing is coming. Its coming in a big way. And it coming directly affects Wokai. We are working on a partnership with Elanex for their software. That is, unless Google does something first..

Mobile banking & microfinance

Courtney

I recently read a great article from CGAP on mobile banking & microfinance. The article provides a great overview on mobile banking. It introduces the industry, discusses the challenges faced and makes note of the implications down the road with implementation.

See: Download cgap_banking_on_mobiles_6.2008.pdf

One issue the article left out – and many articles on the topic leave out for that matter – was how mobile banking affects the personal touch of microfinance. In microfinance, a loan manager is the person collecting repayments each month from their clients. If you eliminate the loan manager and replace her with a mobile phone, will the change affect the client’s repayment rate?

To answer the question, it helps to think of what machines do and do not replace in my own life.

Take my flight from Los Angeles to San Francisco this past weekend. My mom dropped me off at the airport. I put my credit card in a machine that gave me my ticket. I then proceeded through security. A man checked my ID and a machine checked my bags. From security, I went to get a drink. I put my ATM card in a machine to get cash. I then put my cash in a machine to get a bottle of water. Heading to my gate, I then boarded the plane, where a flight attendant checked my ticket. After a short flight, I arrived in San Francisco. I de-boarded the plane and headed to the subway. I put my card in a machine to get a ticket. I took the subway home.

So where did a machine not replace a person?

My mom, the security check man, and the flight attendant.

What do these three people have in common? They all provide a service that cannot be replaced by a machine. In the case of my mom, no machine can replace the affection, care, and love our mom’s shower us with everyday. And, more importantly, in the case of the flight attendant and the security check, they are there to provide individualized service. They have to think and act according to each and every individual situation --- something a machine is not yet able to do.

Take these lessons and apply them to our previous situation with mobile phones replacing loan managers. Loan managers create a bond with their clients. That bond is established through constant interaction through group meetings and and business transactions. That bond plays a significant part in motivating on-time repayment. When we eliminate some of that interaction and rely on a machine instead, I wonder whether or not the results will be the same. Something tell me no.

We experience this in our own lives when we pay a credit card bill online. Every now and then, I am late for a payment – whether that be because I forget, I ignore it, or I am just plain tapped out. Now if I was making that payment to a person - say Mr. Citibank came to my door every month to get the payment - chances are I would never miss it.

There is something to be said for face-to-face interations and the importance they play in microfinance. Now if we can find a way to increase face-to-face interactions with that technology, while allowing repayment functionality, that would be the sweet spot.

Microfinance in Beijing?

Casey

My friend Meagan Dietz just passed on to me an interesting news blurb about a new initiative to launch microfinance pilot programs in Beijing. Given my past blog entry, Beijing is the last place that I would have imagine microfinance to pop up in China. Even with all of the growth and development, there are millions (literally) of microentrepreneurs here, but I would have assumed that the loan size necessary to start a microenterprise would be so high that this wouldn't be the ideal place for microfinance to launch.

When I have some free time, I'm looking forward to going around to the small stands of drink vendors, snack makers, and bike fixers in my area to get a better idea of the credit demand. What is their daily cashflow? Where do they currently get their capital? What types of loan products would they need?

Check out the translation of the news blurb below (Thank you Zhu Bo for doing this translation):

Beijing to Launch MFI within 08

Beijing is expected to launch its first microfinance institution (MFI) before the end of 2008, on a trial basis, said Huo Xuewen, vice director of the Beijing Municipal Commission of Development and Reform in a recent press conference on Beijing’s financial development.

The coming MFI is called Beijing Credit Re-guarantee Co. It has a registered capital of CNY 1 billion, the majority of which is from city finances. A number of state-owned enterprises in Beijing will also become shareholders.

The vice director said only 5% of the group are large-sized enterprises. Small and medium-sized enterprises constitute the majority of the shareholders. Beijing now is trying various means to establish an “associated-finance”, promoting the growth of the medium and small-sized enterprises and solving their problems in funding.

In the two or three years, the share-holding investment market in Beijing is going to expand, said vice director. (Xiao Ren)

http://www.sinofile.net/clients/amcweb.nsf/amcA/303468404822F1494825749500195D77?opendocument

Olympics & the New China

Casey

Wokai is the thick of Olympic activity with our office only a 5 minute bike ride from the Worker's Stadium, an Olympic venue hosting Soccer, Boxing, and various other events in Beijing. The highlight of my week was leaving the office at 1:20pm to meet my friends for a 1:30pm boxing match.

It's amazing what China has created for the Olympics. During the Olympic countdown, every time either a Westerner or Chinese person mentioned the Olympics, he or she would inevitably bring up the subject of one of various issues, whether it be protests, pollution, or the Tibetan conflict, sabotaging the "coming out party" China has dreamt of for the past few years as it anticipated the Olympics.

Ten days into the Olympics, everything in Beijing seems to be going flawlessly. All of the serial Olympic attendees that I have talked to so far claim that this is either THE best or one of the best Olympics that they have attended. I met an American Olympic water polo player who said, "the Olympic Village in Athens pails in comparison to Beijing...In Athens, they hadn't even completed construction by the time we moved in. Here in Beijing, everything, down to the last detail of the fish and fountains in each of the hundreds of small gardens surounding our dorms, is perfect."

Three of my friends were here visiting for the past ten days. It was interesting to see the city from their eyes. They came to China expecting Tai-Chi, traditional architecture, and Chinese medicine. Instead, they were welcomed with the new CCTV tower, latest Apple Store, MacDonalds, and the Bird's Nest. (See pics below). 

What's most amazing is that the Beijing that they see is completely different than the city that I moved into 2 years ago. When I arrived in Beijing, there were only a handful of good Western restaurants, bars, and grocery stores. Today, at least three or four swanky modern spots open up every weekend. I would guess that at least half of the shopping and dining areas that are now being frequented by Olympic visitors were still under construction a month and a half ago. The Starbucks where I am sitting writing this blog only opened its doors about two weeks ago.

Its crazy to think where Beijing and the res tof China will be 5 years from now, let alone 5 months from now.

Is that a bad thing? Is that a good thing? Is it good that China open its doors and completely wash its red hands and put on western gloves? People have mixed opinions on this. I personally don't think its an all or nothing outcome. I like the way Beijing has been moving forward works. Beijing is still China. It is American capitalism with Beijing kwarks. For instance, next to the apple store you still have a Chinese pharmacy, Chinese medicine doctor and local supermarket. And all of those are next two or three 6 story living quarters for old Beijiners. Beijing seems to do a fairly good job of mixing the old with the new.

It is the Shanghai that I worry about. It reminds me of New York on steroids. Shanghai seems to have completely wiped away the Chinese-style buildings and quaint local eateries for Ritz Carltons and fast-food joints. Not sure if that is the direction wants to ultimately head. But unless one of the 175 readers of this blog is someone important from the communist party, not sure if we can change that direction.

Bird's Nest in Chaoyang.

Beijing's CCTV tower in the Central Business District.

Apple Store opened two weeks ago in a new outdoor mall area in Beijing's Sanlitun area. The Apple Store's neighbors include a four story Addidas building, Nike Store, North Face, Cold Stone Ice Cream, and five star hotel.

Produce, Share and Collaborate

Courtney

Guess how many man hours it took to create wikipedia?

100,000,000.

And guess how many man hours we spend parked in front of the boob-toob watching TV every year ? 

200,000,000,000.

Now imagine what we could do if given the motivation and the platform to use those 200 billion hours producing, sharing and collaborating like we have done to create wikipedia.

After spending two weeks in venture capital world, I am not worried about the platform. There are people like Lukas Biewald exploring innovative ways for us to spend our time. Today its Facestat, but tomorrow who knows. Lukas wants to explore how we can use the internet to create a better marketplace for the exchange of ideas and services, while make that bartering process fun and rewarding. I have no doubt that he will find the answer. And we will all be that much happier, more knowledgeable, and more fulfilled because of it. 

It is the motivation that I wonder about.

How do we motivate people to produce?  According to fellow blogger and friend Jake DeGrazia, people naturally want to produce and share (just as much as they want to consume.) They naturally want to collaborate because the most rewarding productions are collaborations.

But I thought we naturally act in our own self interest? We think about what is best for ourselves first and what is good for our neighbor second. Could Hobbes be wrong? Man does not act in his own self interest, but instead acts for the good of the whole?

I don't know about man. But I do know about Curtis. 

late last night, I got an email from Wokai supporter Curtis Chin. Curtis told me he had read our piece, Does Wokai need a "girl"?,  and decided to produce a Wokai video...for the hell of it.  Check it out.

Curtis is a living, breathing example of Jake's philosophy. And so is Ketty who is lighting up the NPR news lines spreading the word about Wokai. And Ben who is snapping photos of the Beijing Olympics and selling them to raise funds for Wokai. And Alice who is looking under every rock and tree to find more Wokai supporters.

And they are not alone. We have 70+ more Wokai volunteers who are just as active in brainstorming, testing and executing ways to make Wokai surivive.  

People do naturally want to produce. And i think they want to collaborate too. They just need the platform and a little motivation to do so.